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. Subwoofers for stereo hifi. Go back
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sonyman

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Post Post subject: Subwoofers for stereo hifi.
Hi guys,
This is really bothering me.

I want your opinion on using a subwoofer in a stereo setup.

I was initially going for biamping to improve the bass and punch.

My ultimate aim is to create smooth music and great bass speed.

SO i called asia sound equipment and had a long chat with Eddie.

Well, i wanted to ask him about the Rotel power amps. And the conversation started and in the end he reconmended me to use a sub in my stereo,

He has a point where using a sub is much easier and more effective for the problem that i m facing.

i wonder now, is there any rule not to use a sub in your stereos,
I was brought up without a sub and all the while i hardly see shops use sub for stereo setup,, except Tong Lee where the piramid speakers has no bass and the sub actually enhances the sound.

i was a bit confused when the owner told me to add a sub, as i told him what i wanted to do.

confused now really.

How would you guys think of it. Ever tried it with the stereos.
Is there any pantang ?


Will other ppl come and listen would laugh at my setup ?
Alephman

Joined: Joined: 27 May 2005
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Well, there's no rules about this sort of things I guess. But be mindfull that most subs in the market are primrily designed for 5.1 type application. Read movies!

So make sure your get a sub that's designed for music too.

Certain REL models come to mind but I can't remeber which. Another is Vandersteen 2WQs, but you'll have to get a pair for full effect!
One that's reasonably priced and does music well is Velodyne subs. Their 10" models are quite good.
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JonC

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Post Post subject:
I think 8 - 10" sub for music are more than adequate for music reproduction. Just make sure you position them well, and tune the phase and cross-over frequenchy correctly to ensure they don't sound boomy and overwhelm your main speakers!
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sonyman

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Post Post subject:
hmm..
I see, there isnt any rule eh.. but anyway i might add one, i have tested out the boom, just that my system is just lag the punch, thats because i m using a SET, so it wont give that punch, if u listen alot of
timbre and booms here and there ,especially explosion.
well, i may consider, but i really feel funny adding a sub,
Alephman

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Well guess you can't really expect much bass control and dynamics out of 12W SET amp. I now understand your urge to bi-amp, to have the sweetness of the highs and smooth vocals of the SETs and the bass conatrol & dynamics of the solid state amps.

A better idea would be to use a tube class A pre-amp partnered to a solid state power amp. However, you must get the matching right to achieve the best of the both, otherwise, you may end up having the worst of the two! Laughing
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sonyman

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well ,this biamp thing suddenly came into consideration, right after i read a web site that it can be done, and it states the superb smooth highs and great thump of the bass, so i gave myself a need to improve my current system,
sad to say alot of consultants, say it is quite difficult but not impossible,
a lot of very negative opinion from the shops, some say need to find the same gain, some say, forget it, and some tell me that you need to do some mod into the preamp so that both the gain are similar "something like that"
as u also told me, you might fry the amps.

so it is kind of risky.
your idea of pre, as valve and power as solid state is like a hybrid amp philosophy. they are really good ideas, like what you have said, matching, but ultimately, i might end up with a unison research SR1, my dream and favorite hybrid amp.
super amp, really! no joke, but it cost a lot, unless someome will sell at half the price i wont mind taking them in.
then all my problems are being resolved. as this amp is powerfull enough to drive a lot of good speakers. well maybe next time.
by that time, my bass needs will be fufilled with good floorstanding speakers.
deep real bass. thats what i m looking for,
Vic

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Post Post subject:
Hi guys,


Would be any easier to use 3 subwoofers, one each for upper,
mid and lower basses; technically sound but is it feasible? Why
use 3? Division of labour, perhaps. Cool Cool Cool
sonyman

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Post Post subject:
Hi VIc nice of you to reply,

But using 3 subs in my room.

I dont think that will do, besides it might sound too much,

Anyway if i were to get 3 subs, i might need to add more out put.

As you know, the more you split the less accurate the results gonna be.
sonyman

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Post Post subject:
Hello VIc, i see that you have just jone us,

Looks like this place is growing after all.

Anyway, i would like to introduce you to this lonely place of hifi, and thanks for your support to join the forum.

It would be nice to ask a little request from the rest of the guru's give a warm welcome to VIc our new member in this hifi forum.

SO VIc, MAybe you can tell us something about your self ..
It would be nice of you to share the experience and knowledge that you have with you

I will posting from time to time, just that i need to find sometime with my wife back in melaka.

Well hope to hear from you, and happy posting
Alephman

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Post Post subject:
Welcome Vic,

Yeah do tell us a bit about your self and your set up?
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Vic

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Hello there,


Thank you for the warm welcome. Yes, I did notice the disquiet.
Is it because the forum is pretty new or that the interest to join
is rather lacking? I could see so many views but postings are
just a few!


I'm from Kuala Lumpur. Being into listening to music from young,
but only got into serious hifi about 10 years ago, though I've bought
the gears a few years earlier. Never knew much about hifi
attributes until I got really serious into it! Always get 'taruh' by
the senior hifi kakis; pay for most of the teh tariks, heh, heh!!!


Anyway, those were the good old days! Never knew earlier that
the speakers could be made to 'disappear'; that the back and lateral walls of the listening room could also made to 'disappear'!!!!
That there is a difference between 'the performers are in the room' and 'you are there, with the performers in the performing venue"!


Didn't know earlier what is image scaling till someone pointed out
how big is the vocals and upper basses, and that everything else
were just not right and too large and bloated! The learning process
was tough and cost alot of time and $$$$$! Make some friends and
lose some because of differing idealogies and philosophies of hifi!


So in the end managed to set up my own systems, but not based
on conventional accepted practices of the day! I run 2 pairs of
speakers together(against all odds and criticisms), uses solid
state instead of valves, uses both vinyls and CDs as source,
use small listening room(my friends were very sure it will boom like
hell), use the most un conventional tweak in the history of hifi: artificial wall behind floorstanders, revive the use of the digital clocking tweak(aka The infamous Tice clock).

Amp: Cambridge integer 70W RMS,
Speakers: the very old Monitor Audio R Series 252,
Speakers: Canadian made Clements,
CDP:Technics slp-700
Vinyl source: SME Series IIIs/Linn K9,
Subwwoofer 1 unit front firing, planning to add 1 more, floor firing.


Gears, very simple and belong to the budget class.
sonyman

Joined: Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Post Post subject:
Thanks VIc for the great intro,

you are really the very of the odd, but i do respect your setup, it is something different from the others, but we will never know how good it is untill we are really there to listen.
Well i manage to read a article, or rather a bit of it in MPH, Stereophile this month, there was a argument what is good sound, or what exactly is hifi, well i never manage to read all , cause i was waiting for a friend.

well i bet it is something worth reading.
i just curi curi baca only. never intended to buy cause it really cost a lot.

it is really great that you never gave up your hifi, really, i thought you might have loose it during your mid life. But now, you are still in it.
i bet you have listen to elvis, and mario lanza, john denver, carpenters, simon garfunkel, and many many more, i got them in vynil, it is actually my dads one.
well really good collection on them, I bet Vic has also got a large collection on them. Dont you Vic.

So Vic do you listen to the system simultaniously, or one at a time. i realise you have a sub in your setup, just wondering is it active or passive type, and also what is your roll off freq for your sub.
i initially wanted to add one, but now still considering will it benefit at all also.
Looks like your hifi skills are really not bad at all for a 10 year experience guy,
knowing about sound dissolving into the walls, and magic sound that make the speaker no more there, provided if you listen in dark or eyes closed. HEHE, wonder you guys do that.

So far i have never experience loosing friends in knowing about hifi, i just respect ppls setup, but i also hope ppl respect my setup.
Just like what we discuss in this topic, no rule in hifi, let those fanatics think that they want to think, and let this place be as open as it is. Shall we ..
But it is really sad knowing hifi can loose friends. Crying or Very sad

well i really learn one thing is that nothing can stop you from buying a large pair of speakers for a small room. it is just how you tune it to suit into the room, change speaker cable, add room tuning, add curtains, and many more, my room is normal, but when i started , it was like crazy, can never listen to any music. only selected ones, but today with tuning and dampening with foams and also furniture.
you bet, the room is never as boomy as b4, b4 i had only one carpet, then now the entire room is fully carpeted, my dad went to but the 2nd hand office carpet, one piece is like 10 buck for a 16 inch x 16 inc, i guess,
and we bought a whole lot of them and padded the entire room.
now i bet a can place an mid size speaker "floor stander" into the room.
can i just ask, what artificial wall is it that you are talking about.
are they made of the wood if holes or compartment in between them?
is it suppose to disperse the constructive wave at the back of the speaker ?
wow you are really the sub king man, adding really alot.
Can i just ask, why do you intend to add the subs?
is it because that the speakers cant produce that kind of bass?
Alephman

Joined: Joined: 27 May 2005
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Vic,

Thanks for the rather detailed intro. Your set up described sounds unconventional, but then again, some of the best system I've heard are non conventional. I hope to get a chance to listen to it one day.

Well, hi-fi, like most hobbies is about passion. Some are so passionately blinded by their believes, that they'd lose their mother if she did not agree to their thinking. I've known audiphiles like that. It hurts very deeply when you see a person going down that road, especially someone whom you consider to be a good friend.

I always try to be open minded, but I am only human and sometimes, I do admit to have a lot of pre-conceived ideas.

So like Vic, I gained and loss friend on the the road to sonic nirvana. And I've just realised, once you've reach nirvana, the journey stops. For me, it's the journey that matters, we all get to nirvana someday(sonic or otherwise) Laughing
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Vic

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Hi Sonyman,


Wah! So many questions, lah! Ok, try my best, here.


You wrote..................

Thanks VIc for the great intro,
you are really the very of the odd, but i do respect your setup, it is something different from the others, but we will never know how good it is untill we are really there to listen.


/Logically, if a system is setup the conventional way, it will sound
just like any other setup, at best, the best sounding set up
for that price point! If setup differently, would logically entails
a different sound, sometimes good and sometimes even bad!.


.
it is really great that you never gave up your hifi, really, i thought you might have loose it during your mid life. But now, you are still in it.

/Yes, I'm about to get senior citizen status. If passion is for music
it could last very long.


i bet you have listen to elvis, and mario lanza, john denver, carpenters, simon garfunkel, and many many more, i got them in vinyls, it is actually my dads one.
well really good collection on them, I bet Vic has also got a large collection on them. Dont you Vic.


/I do have some of this on vinyls, and what you mentioned are
my favourites at one time, still listen to them.



So Vic do you listen to the system simultaniously, or one at a time. i realise you have a sub in your setup, just wondering is it active or passive type, and also what is your roll off freq for your sub.
i initially wanted to add one, but now still considering will it benefit at all also.


/I listen alternately, but vinyls are more difficult to take care.
I uses a active sub, small one about 50Watter. I set if cut off
at 90Hz(pretty high) and roll off at maybe 45Hz, more for
upper basses and very little of the mid basses and practically
nothing with anything lower. Hence looking into another sub
just for the mid basses. Having anything in the lowest of Hz
is just next to impossible, got to be realistic about things
sometimes.

Looks like your hifi skills are really not bad at all for a 10 year experience guy,
knowing about sound dissolving into the walls, and magic sound that make the speaker no more there, provided if you listen in dark or eyes closed. HEHE, wonder you guys do that.


/It's much easier to close eyes to listen, I do, as still working
on those 'disappearing acts' . Heard them in some unusual
set ups over the years, from empirical experiences, can't
expect to get those attributes if we go the tested and tried,
proven correct very conventional ways of setting up hifi!



So far i have never experience loosing friends in knowing about hifi, i just respect ppls setup, but i also hope ppl respect my setup.
Just like what we discuss in this topic, no rule in hifi, let those fanatics think that they want to think, and let this place be as open as it is. Shall we ..But it is really sad knowing hifi can loose friends. Crying or Very sad


/If they think you have gone 'cuckoo' and not adhered to the
proven practices of hifi, pretty sure they will just leave you
alone and later will just erase their memory from their memory
banks...heh, heh, heh!!!


well i really learn one thing is that nothing can stop you from buying a large pair of speakers for a small room. it is just how you tune it to suit into the room,


/It's how we look and perceived things to be. Somethings are
plain difficult and takes time to solve. Usually can be solve if
there is enough time, I think we could accept this fact.


can i just ask, what artificial wall is it that you are talking about.
are they made of the wood if holes or compartment in between them?
is it suppose to disperse the constructive wave at the back of the speaker ?

/The rear firing ports happen to be very near to the ground, so
placing a wall of bricks helps to tune the bass ports and gives the
low Hz a more gradual dip, hence the perception of deeper basses
and fuller body in the upper basses. Really very simple, and it's
a very cheap tweak! Adjust the distant from the ports to tune
to the room or rather enhance the effect of the speaker and room
interactions for improved sonics.


wow you are really the sub king man, adding really alot.
Can i just ask, why do you intend to add the subs?
is it because that the speakers cant produce that kind of bass?


/As explained above to cover a wider area in the subsonic region.
Get the subwoofer to work in the range that it best perform, and
you 've got it. No boom at listening position, though there is boom behind the listeners, but then it's in a position where the lsiteners
are not affected!


Very Happy Very Happy
Vic

Joined: Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 235
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Hi Aleph,

You wrote.............

Vic,

Thanks for the rather detailed intro. Your set up described sounds unconventional, but then again, some of the best system I've heard are non conventional. I hope to get a chance to listen to it one day.


/Delighted to have you listen to my system. If you are in Kuala Lumpur, do drop me a mail at unclevicmy@yahoo.com


Well, hi-fi, like most hobbies is about passion. Some are so passionately blinded by their believes, that they'd lose their mother if she did not agree to their thinking. I've known audiophiles like that. It hurts very deeply when you see a person going down that road, especially someone whom you consider to be a good friend.


/Usually this won't happen if they go listen to as many systems
as possible, and tend to know what is acceptable generally, and
eventually knows what he/she wants and still stick to logical and
reasonable means and at the same time know what to avoid in
the long run. Reading magazines and books is rather different
from listening experiences which helps us reinforce what we
believe, what we think is right or wrong, and help us on the look
out for ways of getting the hifi system to sound much better than
before. Opinions could change over time as we exposed ourselves
more to more listening experiences!

I always try to be open minded, but I am only human and sometimes, I do admit to have a lot of pre-conceived ideas.

So like Vic, I gained and loss friend on the the road to sonic nirvana. And I've just realised, once you've reach nirvana, the journey stops. For me, it's the journey that matters, we all get to nirvana someday(sonic or otherwise)

/Sometimes, friends do come back when they think they are
back in the right path, or begin to see things the way you see it.
Then we ought to accept them back and share experiences.
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